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roasting
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: roasting Reply with quote

is it just bec. i am new in cooking that all these terms are very hard to understand? From what i understand roasting is usually done with no water and no lid and the meat is usually on a rack, or on a bed of veg. And u are trying to get a nice brown crisp skin.....right so far? where i am lost at is when some one calls chicken cooked in oven with lid .... steam roasted. where does the roasted part come in? Is there two meanings on roasted, i went back on the other posts and seen where something about structure for roast and bake.... just really confused. Hope u can help. also do u know any good cook books out there that can help ,i know your probably busy with other important questions and i really hate to bother you. some cook books I did look at really dont help at all, but confuse me more.
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wanted to mention that i read for when you are talking about roast you are speaking of meat, poultry. veg. and bake for pastry, bread etc... so knowing this i would think roasting has 2 meanings. the way its prepared and what type of food it is? Not sure.
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1629
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please read this post first (especially my response which is pertinent to your "roast" question):
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2711

Then let's talk some more.

By the way, where are you from? There are a lot of words in English that have many meanings which sometimes are clarified by context and (many other times) not entirely obvious at all. An example of this is the word "run" which has 31 meanings in the Merriam-Webster dictionary and 111 meanings/uses in the Oxford Dictionary.

We're doing our best to put together a food dictionary here at CFE, but it's a pretty time consuming thing to work on. Here's our entries on roast which may or may not help.

As for your cookbook question - are you asking about general "learn to cook" cookbooks? I think you were reading Gisslen's Professional Cooking which is an excellent textbook although I prefer The Professional Chef over Professional Cooking. Most people starting out (and asking the questions you are asking) don't need a textbook written for use in a culinary school in much the same way as someone interested in learning more about biology usually doesn't pick up a college level textbook prior to getting some exposure to the subject first.

My favorite cookbook to recommend to cooks of all levels is Cook's Illustrated's excellent collection of well-tested and guaranteed to work recipes: The New Best Recipe. They include detailed descriptions of what they tried for each recipe (what worked and what didn't) so prior to reading the recipe you have an understanding of what is going on and actually learn from reading the recipe. Most recipe books don't teach, they just collect recipes together as a reference and have the occasional tip or factoid (that may or may not actually be true).

If you want a cookbook that is heavy on the science of how or why stuff works, then take a look at Cookwise. If you don't care for recipes and just want to know the science then On Food and Cooking is the way to go. If money is no object, then Modernist Cuisine has one of the most exhaustive surveys of cooking techniques and equipment that I have had the pleasure of reading (the the writing is clear and really was a pleasure to read, but it's over $500). There is a single volume home edition of Modernist Cuisine at Home which was just published this year ($120) but I do not know if it contains the same exhaustive coverage of cooking techniques as the original (my copy is still in the hardboard display box it ships with - there's no finger gap for me to easily pull it out and I haven't put aside any time to review it or anything).

If you have specific things you are looking for in a cookbook, ask and I might be able to answer... I have read or looked at more cookery books than most and might be able to provide my opinion; if not, I'm sure other people can / will chime in.
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you i will look into the books u suggested. I am orginally from mexico,and we are living up here in ohio. We got lucky and rented a house that came with many things including a computer system,furniture,cooking things.etc... never had much expr. in cooking and now trying to learn.
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if u say the strict way of roasting is what roasting is. (in your own words). then this rec. is no way being done by roasting.....Oven Roasted BBQ Ribs With Stout Beer Barbecue Sauce

4 lbs Bone In Baby Back Beef Ribs (Choice or Prime)

1 tsp salt

1 batch Stout & Sriracha BBQ Sauce

Preheat oven to 250.

Line a baking sheet with aluminum foil, place ribs on top. Sprinkle ribs with salt on all sides. Brush with BBQ sauce and roast in the oven at 250, turning ribs and brushing with BBQ sauce every 30-45 minutes until fork tender, about 4 hours. So the reason here would be why they call it roasted is bec. that is what u call meat baked in oven roasted,like cakes or pastry are called baked? or bec. why
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Jim Cooley



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 335
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will second the opinion that The New Best Recipe is a good cookbook.
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1629
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabbage head wrote:
if u say the strict way of roasting is what roasting is. (in your own words). then this rec. is no way being done by roasting.....Oven Roasted BBQ Ribs With Stout Beer Barbecue Sauce
...
Line a baking sheet with aluminum foil, place ribs on top. Sprinkle ribs with salt on all sides. Brush with BBQ sauce and roast in the oven at 250, turning ribs and brushing with BBQ sauce every 30-45 minutes until fork tender, about 4 hours. So the reason here would be why they call it roasted is bec. that is what u call meat baked in oven roasted,like cakes or pastry are called baked? or bec. why

It's easier when you actually take the time to quote someone instead of saying "if u say the strict way of roasting is what roasting is. (in your own words)." I've written a lot of words on this website and it's not easy to figure out which ones you are referring to, especially in this case where I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I would not consider the recipe you just posted as a "roast" when it clearly falls under one of the most popular definitions of "to roast": to cook meat uncovered in an oven (the fully qualified name of this is "to oven roast").

By the way, you did the same thing earlier - instead of taking the time to write down what Gisslen wrote about steaming, you asked me (or whoever you expected to answer your questions) to go and look it up. Anyway, I understand the nebulous nature of the vocabulary of cooking can be frustrating, but you have to remember that it's not MY fault and I'm trying to be as helpful to you as possible. So, please make it as easy for me to help you as you can.

Back to the topic at hand, maybe it would be easier if we had a starting point - what are your definitions of "to roast"? It'll be easier if we start there and I correct / add to it.

It might also be useful to know your education or work background. My guess is something in the scientific field or another area of study that is generally inflexible with language. Unfortunately, cooking has not traditionally been a science and the terminology that grew up and evolved with cooking and food is highly fractured and imprecise and inconsistent.
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Jim Cooley



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 335
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cabbage head -- you may also inquire in other languanges or tongues.

Tongue? did someone say tongue??? Big smile Reminds me of a redipe....
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the reason i thought that rec. the one with the ribs wasnt roasting was bec. it used barque sauce and i thought that would be a considered a liquid. Going by what u posted Some people (myself included) have a strict definition of the word "roasting" (I might not be able to articulate it, but in my mind it's very stringent - uncovered, no liquid, oven or fire) but the word becomes more flexible when applied to a specific food or dish because of how cooking evolved over time. To be very strict on definitions means that I have to pretend to not know what people are talking about or correct them:
Person: "I like to put a lid over my roast chicken to keep it moist."
Me: "I don't understand... that's like saying you like to divide to multiply. You mean you like to bake your chicken?"
Not necessarily conducive to conversation when that happens. There are other times when we are discussing specific cooking techniques and comparing them and their differences and then using strictly defined language is useful for everyone to understand what we are talking about exactly. Unfortunately, which one (flexible or strict) is usually determined by context and can be confusing with different people (some people are always strict and others always flexible in their use of language). And as far as not stating what the other author said i didnt know if that was allowed on this site thats why i said page number. But since i can do that here is a rec. from hillbilly housewife called steam roasted chicken..

http://www.hillbillyhousewife.com/steamroastedchicken.htm

So its ok to have two cooking tech, in a title?

[edited by Michael Chu to remove giant cut and paste and replaced with link]
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

last question why is corn wrapped in foil called roasted corn , it would seem like it should be baked corn. Is it from the theory anything that is meat,veg, etc.. going in the oven is roasted and baked.... for pastry things?
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1629
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I edited your post with the hillbilly housewife recipe because that was a huge cut and paste that you didn't even take the extra minute to trim the navigation text from the website out. It was difficult to read as your question "So its ok to have two cooking tech, in a title?" was appended directly to the end of her recipe and there was footer text from her website after your question. Anyway, I'm taking a lot of time to answer your questions, please give me the courtesy of taking an extra minute to clean up your posts before you post them.

As for her recipe... is it okay to use two types of cooking techniques in the title. I suppose. Clearly, hillbilly housewife knows that this isn't regular roasted chicken since it's tightly covered. From her description, it sounds like it produces a chicken that is in between roasted and steamed so in this case, for lack of better name, it is probably okay to call it that even though to most chefs that would imply you roasted a chicken while injecting steam (perhaps in an oven equipped with steam such as those for baking baguettes). I'm not sure what _I_ would have called this dish and might need some more time to consider it.

As to why the BBQ sauce doesn't make the previous recipe baked is two fold. The first is that the BBQ isn't contributing a significant part to the way heat is being imparted to the food - there's not enough of it for it for the food to be truly simmered or braised in the sauce. It's there for flavoring. If the sauce went up 1/3 or more of the way up the side of the food and it was cooked, then I would consider that a moist cooking technique. The second is that in general we refer to "whole" muscles or vegetables cooked in the oven as "roasting" while cut up or processed as "baked".

If you cook a whole chicken, uncovered, in the oven it would be roasted. If you cut it up and cook it uncovered in the same way, it can go either way with a general preference towards baked. If it was cut up and stuffed with cheese or chopped up and put into a sauce with a pastry crust, then these would definitely be baked and not roasted. That's why the corn in your latest example is usually referred to as foil-roasted corn although foil-baked corn is probably okay as well. Corn that has been cut off the cob and cooked in the oven is probably best referred to as baked, but there is a grey area. (For example, if you cut up beets and stick them in the oven with a little like oiling and seasoning, it's still roasted even though you chopped them up. If you wrapped up or covered the chopped up pieces, I would say it's baked. But had I not chopped it up and wrapped it whole, I would still call it roasted. These grey areas will end up being personal preference.) I suspect this "whole" ingredient in oven part of the "roast" definition is also why hillbilly housewife chose to keep the word "roast" in the recipe title. In this case, it might just be easier to call it baked chicken since most often when chicken is baked (in pieces) it is covered and produces a similar result. However, the tendency to call cut up chicken as baked and whole chicken as roasted is a very strong one and hard to decide which way to go in a recipe such as this one.

Lastly, yes, I would have to agree that when speaking to people about food normally and in most situations, you have to be very flexible in interpreting the language they use. I tend to use strict-ish language when I lecture about food and hear questions asked in broad flexible language and do my best to guess what they are meaning. If I can't understand because of a misuse in term, only then do I define a couple words as they mean to me and ask them to choose which they mean. As an engineer, this has happened throughout my career and I've learned to deal with it. Be it some esoteric graphic modeling technique, a chipset function, or (now) some ruby or jquery method or object which is being erroneously referred to by a someone telling me what they want it to do, I might correct them once or twice, but in the end as long as I'm not confused by what they mean, I don't make too big a point of it. However, if I wasn't a subject matter expert and I heard all this talk from other non-experts who have a cursory knowledge of the subject, then it can be a very confusion world (so I totally understand what you are going through as you learn more about cooking but the people around you are using terms loosely and inconsistently). Unfortunately, I often find myself using flexible language as well because the people around me use flexible language or (sometimes) because it just sounds better. I think I've gotten off track, so I'll pause here and await your next question.
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as i said in another post ,i believe it was when i was talking about an author.I had said i am having some problems with my computer,and u replied thats ok. I do know the above post from hillbilly house wife was not the way it should of been, but i was having difficulties with the computer and didnt want to keep sending it.(would be helpful if there was a edit button). Any ways, i said that was my last question and i appreciate the help on this issue.
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1629
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you register for an account instead of posting as a guest, you can edit.
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cabbage head
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ths was on a web site :.
http://cookmoresmilemore.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/sinfully-simple-no-fail-roasted-chicken-pieces/


do you interpret this as roasting as in the title? If not what would you say it i?. It seems like a lot of water being used for roasting . I thought roasting was suppose be dry cooking?
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1629
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why haven't you registered for an account yet?

This is a baked chicken dish because the chicken is in pieces.

If this was made with a whole chicken (let's say it was butterflied and flat) and it was sitting in a broth like that, then, because there isn't a term that exactly captures what it is, I would probably find "roast" and acceptable adjective especially since the resulting texture is similar to a roast chicken. I might opt for "oven simmered" which more accurately describes the cooking technique than "roasted" since that generally assumes the cook is suspending the food so it isn't sitting in liquid all the time.

Congrats, you're doing a good job identifying the problems with cooking vocabulary especially when it comes to cooking techniques that aren't strictly moist or dry (in this case it's both as the bottom of the chicken is cooked mainly through a moist method with the top cooked via a dry method). The next step is to stop getting bothered by other people's misuse of common cooking terms. By the way, "roast" is an especially popular term for misuse due to its multiple meanings and because most people have a very positive feeling towards it. Most people don't mislabel recipes as "boiled chicken" because it sounds unappetizing.
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