Cooking For Engineers

[bonpon2003]

Hi All!

I am so frustrated with bread kneading.

I have taken class about bread manufacturing from dough kneading (with machine) to fermentation etc... It was 8 hrs class for 2 weeks straight, and we made all kinds of doughs, with different ingredient variations to see the effect. We controlled the water temperature, room temperature etc... so I think I know what is a under/fully/over kneading dough looks like. I think I know how to check whether a protein is properly developed.

However, when I tried to knead the dough by hand, as simple as a simple dough like 70% water and yeast, I couldn't develop the protein. And I experiment with developing the protein naturally by doing nothing for couple of hours.

When I baked, you can tell that the structure (the protein) is underdeveloped while the gas is there. The bread is dense.

So my question is: has anyone of you successfully knead the dough by hand?

[bonpon2003]

When I refer to developing protein, I meant developing gluten. What was I thinking?

[Jim Cooley]

[bonpon2003]

What yeast brand do you recommend?

[Dilbert]

>>70% water

??hydration level?? that's a fairly slack dough and you will not get a stick smooth elastic stretchable dough - it may be too wet to come together like that.

have you looked at any net videos on hand kneading? there's about a zillion "methods" from slap&stick to fold&stretch, etc. one question,,, what is your time perception of hand kneading dough? it does take time - 20 minutes is not an unusual period for kneading by hand.

most breads take an initial kneading - followed by a proofing period to double the dough volume - then a punch down / form into shape activity - followed by a second proofing period.

time and temp have a relationship regarding yeast activity - in my northern cooler (winter) kitchen the proofing times can easily go twice as long to the "as written" - hopefully with your experience you are not clock watching but dough watching.....

[Jim Cooley]

[dianamoon]

I find the old-fashioned knead with the heel of your hand to be excruciatingly boring, not to mention ineffective. It really doesn't do a great job of developing the gluten, unless you have hands and arms like a blacksmith.

Richard Bertinet, a French master, has popularized an old French method called "slap and pull." (No laughs, please.) I'm not sure of the policies here with respect to putting Youtube URLs, so I'll just tell you to look on the 'net for "Richard Bertinet."

But I'll describe it here, couldn't be simpler. You slap the wet dough (and it works with very wet doughs) on a clean surface no oil no extra flour. You pull the mess up and fold it over, trapping air. After a while your wet mass of flour, water, yeast & salt will become stretchy dough. I've done it and it works.

Caveat: this should be used w/doughs that are at least 50% white flour. It doesn't work as well with 100% ww flour, if you want a stretchy sandwich bread that slices real nice. Although you can make a decent artisanal ww bread with it, the kind you bake at a very high heat, covered, and which you break off hunks to accompany soups, etc.

Once you knead bread this way, you'll never go back to that stupid knead with the heel of your hand way. I don't know why anyone does that anymore.

[Michael Chu]

[dianamoon]

[KitchenBarbarian]

I don't knead by hand, ever, but with a very slack dough like you describe, a a stretch and fold technique may be more helpful.

I knead everything but no-knead doughs in my Zo these days. Soooo much easier, even easier than using my KA mixer as the KA mixer is VERY heavy, difficult for me to lift out, and the Zo is right there on the cabinet.

Here's Peter Reinhart demonstrating the stretch and fold

[DrBiggles]

[yocona]

Dr. Biggles--Your theory makes sense to me. Nothing can compensate for the human touch.

One other thing that can cause dense bread is over-proofing the loaf. If it rises too long before going in the oven, the yeast is already "too pooped to pop."

[Dilbert]

over-proofing often results in the loaf collapsing - in "the center" is the usual "spot"

the yeast has produced so much gas the "bubbles" in the loaf are large(r) and also more "fragile" -

oven spring - the (additional) rising you see when popping it in the oven is primarily due to the air / CO2 bubbles expanding from the heat. in an over-proofed loaf the stress is enough to make the bubbles burst - which leads to the collapse.

Biggles - I keep my yeast in the freezer - it keeps like forever. I never pay attention to the expiration date - I've used yeast that is well beyond its 'date' without issues. you can also "proof" the yeast to see if it is still alive and well.

[Jim Cooley]

Biggles is back!

Thanks for tips, guys (and gals).

I need to learn this stuff, and these sorts of tips are great.

Jim

[Dilbert]

>>tips

(long convoluted boring story omitted...) I've had a couple bread machines. when filled with concrete, they make a decent boat anchor for a small dingy in protected waters. other than that, I would .. nebber mind - I'm sure you get the point....

kneading by hand is very 'therapeutic' - some folks enjoy it, personally it's a bit to my 'tedious' side.

some bakers insist they get better results with Method A, or B, or slap&fold, or.... I've tried most of them out of curiosity and never could really identify a marked superiority to, sigh, ye olde KitchenAid with a dough hook.

it's possible I should method practice more.
it's also possible to become so enthralled with the whirling KA that the dough is overworked. some experience and attention to detail required.