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To get hottest oven, add Mass of Pizza stone, or not?
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jimjimjim9



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: To get hottest oven, add Mass of Pizza stone, or not? Reply with quote

Want to try to duplicate High heat (ca. 700) of "wood fired oven" using standard electric oven.

If I use a Large, dense, heavy (12 lb) pizza stone, and preheat oven for long time, will the oven go higher than the dial limit of 475?

What are the physics that would be going on here? Imagine the 12 lb pizza stone as having absorbed, and re-radiating, all the heat possible.

Target foods: Pizza, Roasted chicken, roasted veggies.
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DrBiggles



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Richmond, CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: To get hottest oven, add Mass of Pizza stone, or not? Reply with quote

jimjimjim9 wrote:
Want to try to duplicate High heat (ca. 700) of "wood fired oven" using standard electric oven.

If I use a Large, dense, heavy (12 lb) pizza stone, and preheat oven for long time, will the oven go higher than the dial limit of 475?

What are the physics that would be going on here? Imagine the 12 lb pizza stone as having absorbed, and re-radiating, all the heat possible.

Target foods: Pizza, Roasted chicken, roasted veggies.


What physics would be going on here would be called magic. Your electric range would turn in to a slag heap and burn your house down if it reached those temps, if it could. It can't, so stop it.

Biggles
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1620
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to use a pizza stone to help increase the temperature of the oven, it's not going to work (at least not how you want it to). A pizza stone is a large insulator that is capable of storing a significant amount of thermal energy. The average temperature of the pizza stone however will be the same as the ambient temperature of the oven (unless the pizza stone is being heated by the heating elements and blocking the rest of the oven from being heated). The presence of the pizza stone will help keep the oven temperature more consistent as it radiates heat to the cooling air (when the heating elements are off), but it will more or less be at equilibrium with the rest of the oven.

If the pizza stone was heated directly and the thermostat was shielded, then it is possibel that the pizza stone is at a much higher temperature than the rest of the oven. However, it is unlikely that an oven rated at 475F will be able to impart enough thermal energy to the stone to get that stone up to 700F. Even at an elevated temperature, the stone would radiate heat slowly and not raise the internal temperature of the oven by much more than 50 or so F°


Last edited by Michael Chu on Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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ModlrMike



Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A perfect example of the 1st law of thermodynamics. The heat from the oven will go into the stone until it reaches equilibrium. If the stone were hotter than the oven then the heat would leave the stone. The thermal mass of the stone has no effect on how hot you can get the oven. You might be able to duplicate the wood fired effect by using your stone in a propane BBQ.
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EngineeringProfessor



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: To get hottest oven, add Mass of Pizza stone, or not? Reply with quote

jimjimjim9 wrote:
Want to try to duplicate High heat (ca. 700) of "wood fired oven" using standard electric oven.


You can pretty much forget getting 700 degrees out of a standard electric kitchen oven (see other posts) and if you bypass the thermostat and fusible links, you may get to 700 degrees, but you most likely will also burn down your house, void your insurance and possibly go to jail if someone dies in the fire. I say back off and forget it.

That said, I put my pizza stone on the floor of my gas oven and crank it up to 500 degrees. The stone gets more than hot enough to do great tasting Indian nan, which is normally cooked in a tandoori, as well as middle-eastern grade pita breads. So, using this technique, I feel confident that I could easily get great pizza, etc.

Your dilemma is that you are working with an electric oven and I would not be surprised if the bottom element is exposed. This changes the heating dynamics from that of a gas oven, which is what I have, from direct heat to convective heat. You might try putting the stone directly on the element, but then you get localized hot spots and may possibly damage the element.
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jimjimjim9



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points by all. You can't get around that darned 1st law, nor the appliance maker's parts engineering for "stay within 500".

Perhaps I've been reading, with salivation, too many descriptions of what a backyard wood fired oven can produce. And a visit to a local potter whose electric kiln goes over 1000 degrees.

I shall content myself with the quasi-plebian pizzas fired at just under 500, and roasted veggies just below "de rigeur".

...As I search for local sources of firebrick and good clays. Smile

Thanks.
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jimjimjim9



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few few links for brick or adobe ovens:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/homestead/2004-November/002374.html

http://heatkit.com/html/bakeoven.htm

http://www.permapak.net/adobeoven.htm
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EngineeringProfessor



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimjimjim9 wrote:
A few few links for brick or adobe ovens:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/homestead/2004-November/002374.html
http://heatkit.com/html/bakeoven.htm
http://www.permapak.net/adobeoven.htm


Jim-cubed-nine,

That may be your best option if you really crave the wood-fired oven result. There are added benefits. The reason that kitchens were built as separate buildings in days of yore was two-fold. First, if the kitchen caught fire (that 700+ degree oven!) the house most likely would not. Secondly, it kept that intense heat away from the house and so aided the comfort of the inhabitants. What better reasons than these for putting your oven in the backyard? Have fun, stay happy. Also, designing and building something is a fundamental activity of an engineer--heaven!
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GaryProtein



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to disagree here, but if you place a pizza stone on a lower shelf in the oven, especially an electric oven, you CAN get the stone hotter than the thermistat on the oven or a thermometer would lead you to believe. The reason is because the stone, just above the calrod will absorb the heat (especially the infrared heat) before it rises to the oven's sensor, and so the heat will remain on and get the stone VERY hot if you want. You won't burn out your oven either because it won't get as hot as the oven gets when you put it on to self clean, which is much higher than any cooking temperature you would use.
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Michael Chu



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1620
Location: Austin, TX (USA)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure that an oven that maxes out at 475°F will be able to heat the stone past 700°F. Even if it could, I read the original question as asking if the insertion of a large mass (like a really thick pizza stone) could heat the oven past 700°F. If the question is if the stone could get to that temperature, then it's a whole different ball game.

Now that I'm rereading the question, I'm not sure what the desired affect is. There are more efficient ways to get a plate really hot. For example, on the stove top you can easily bring a thick clad pan or cast iron pan over 700°F, but, like the oven, the air won't reach that temperature.
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GaryProtein



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not believe the air in the oven overall will be in the 700 degree range, but the stone will get hot as hell. I use a granite floor tile--the rough side you cement to the mud--as the cooking surface. Eventually, they start to crack and I get another one. One 18x18 tile lets me make a pizzeria sized pie and costs less than smaller store bought "pizza stones" and gives great results!
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EngineeringProfessor



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: I agree, that was my point (sorta) Reply with quote

GaryProtein wrote:
I hate to disagree here, but if you place a pizza stone on a lower shelf in the oven, especially an electric oven, you CAN get the stone hotter than the thermistat on the oven or a thermometer would lead you to believe. The reason is because the stone, just above the calrod will absorb the heat (especially the infrared heat) before it rises to the oven's sensor, and so the heat will remain on and get the stone VERY hot if you want. You won't burn out your oven either because it won't get as hot as the oven gets when you put it on to self clean, which is much higher than any cooking temperature you would use.


When I use my stone on the bottom of my oven (just above the burner), I also use an IR thermometer to monitor the temp--yes, you can get hotter that 500 degrees.

My problem with putting the stone on an electric element was two-fold:

1) break the stone (uneven heat)

2) break the element (not made to carry a stone)
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GaryProtein



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: I agree, that was my point (sorta) Reply with quote

EngineeringProfessor wrote:
GaryProtein wrote:
I hate to disagree here, but if you place a pizza stone on a lower shelf in the oven, especially an electric oven, you CAN get the stone hotter than the thermistat on the oven or a thermometer would lead you to believe. The reason is because the stone, just above the calrod will absorb the heat (especially the infrared heat) before it rises to the oven's sensor, and so the heat will remain on and get the stone VERY hot if you want. You won't burn out your oven either because it won't get as hot as the oven gets when you put it on to self clean, which is much higher than any cooking temperature you would use.


When I use my stone on the bottom of my oven (just above the burner), I also use an IR thermometer to monitor the temp--yes, you can get hotter that 500 degrees.

My problem with putting the stone on an electric element was two-fold:

1) break the stone (uneven heat)

2) break the element (not made to carry a stone)


I guess I wasn't clear when I said place the stone just above the calrod. I do not place the granite tile on the calrod of the electric oven. I place it on the lowest or second lowest height the cooking rack goes on--about four inches above the heat source.
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DrBiggles



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Richmond, CA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: To get hottest oven, add Mass of Pizza stone, or not? Reply with quote

jimjimjim9 wrote:
Want to try to duplicate High heat (ca. 700) of "wood fired oven" using standard electric oven.

If I use a Large, dense, heavy (12 lb) pizza stone, and preheat oven for long time, will the oven go higher than the dial limit of 475?

What are the physics that would be going on here? Imagine the 12 lb pizza stone as having absorbed, and re-radiating, all the heat possible.

Target foods: Pizza, Roasted chicken, roasted veggies.


Howabout if you disconnect the safety switch and set the oven to CLEAN?

Biggles
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Bunny



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a website where someone does just that; he cooks pizza in an oven in "clean" mode.

I have stones in my electric oven most of the time. When baking bread, I put my round pizza stone on the highes rack, and some square unglazed tiles on the bottom. I turn my oven on 45 minutes before I bake (at 350, since it's bread), using the stove above as my "proofing" area. I bake my bread on parchment directly on the tiles.

The important thing is that the stones, which are saturated at 350 degrees, keep their heat when I open and close the oven door, and impart that heat directly into my bread. The stones stabilize the heat in the oven, buffering from the cycling of the elements and the opening and closing of the door.
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