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Hard Anodized\Enamelware Questions! What is toughest!
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SgtNickFury



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Hard Anodized\Enamelware Questions! What is toughest! Reply with quote

Hi, I'm desperately trying to replace our current mess of old cookware with something that will last. We just got married, and we have a strange assortment of budget cookware....

My Biggest requirements is that it have NO nonstick coating.

That it be able to use metal cooking utinsils, whisks etc....

That it be tough enough to be servicable at least 10 years from now.

I have so far looked at the Caphalon Commericial, and the One Infused (what is the diff?)

Consumer Reports ranked the Kirkland Signature high, but they seem to say hard anodized, but also nonstick.....(do these have a nonstick coating? or can you use metal utinsils with them?) I'd really like to know about this set and experiences as the prices are insanely cheap......about 150 bucks for a set.......THAT makes me happy.

I've even looked at some Vollrath peices etc...I would love to know where i can buy true Commercial grade stuff via the internet by the way without jacked up home user prices.

Again I don't care if it's pretty, I want TOUGH.....and something that will last.......I am not adverse to elbow greese for cleaning, what I can not stand is nonstick coatings breaking apart on my cooking surface and getting in my food. And I want something that conducts heat well.

A side question.....everyone seemes to talk about anodized aluminum...I'm just wondering long term how does it compare to cast iron enamelware.....my mom has enamelware pieces she's been using since I was born.....yeah they are abit pitted now, but they still work great, and even on a worse stick basis an sos pad does the trick.

My Dad was both a Mechanical Engineer, and from a German family......as a result I have inherrited a desire for stuff to be made to last 50 years or more, and it can never be too tough, too thick, support too much weight, or be too well constructed.....I don't even want to own a pocket knife if it won't last several generations.

If I could afford iron-clad I might go with that. But that is not in my budget.

Thanks for comments, and advice. If you know of ANY other products for no nonsense cookware that I should look at please let me know...again I do not have a budget for the uber expensive lines, and I do not want any state of the art non stick coating........I want commercial kitchen functional, that you'd go to war with.


Last edited by SgtNickFury on Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SgtNickFury



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to add, I have purchased a Calphalon Commercial 12 qt stock pot I love, and I have a heavy Calphalon stainless steel fry pan (I just use for meats good for browning). I have a nonstick Calphalon giant pan I found on scratch and dent (lid had dent who cares?) I like nonstick for it only because of eggs.

But pretty much EVERYTHING else we own I want to replace, sauce pans, sautepans, smaller stock pots etc.......I'm tired of cheaply made dept store cookware.

For that matter any recommendations on good enamelware would be appeciated.
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SgtNickFury



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I haven't gotten a reply let me clarify my questions.


Which is actually tougher for long term use, Vitreous Enamelware? or Hard/Infused Anodized Aluminum?

How do these compare to clad aluminum as far as sheer toughness goes?

How much a difference do these actually make in cooking, both in temp control, and in reactivity, as they are ALL supposed to be non reactive.

Granted I understand that Enamel is an insulator and so it has a lag when changing temps....but I myself don't change temps much anyway....I have a temp I want to do something at I keep it at that temp most of the time, only turning it to low when I'm done and simply want to keep it warm.......so other then the temp control what is the downside to Enamelware? It certainly SEEMS tougher then Anodized Aluminum in that There are 30+ year pots my mom has used regurlarly that are in fact still in use....

I also wonder about the "clad" aluminum, ALL-Clad costs and insane amount, but how much better is it then other clad brands? how does it compare with Kirklands Clad Stainless for example? Is it really that technologically superior, or is it mostly brand name?

If anyone knows anything about the Henckels Twin Cast line also I'd be appreciative, I'm intrigued by their claims and lifetime warrenty as well.
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danemodsandy



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

If you're looking for lifetime tough without having to become obsessive-compulsive about care, you need to consider other cookware types besides anodized and enamelware. The problem with both is that the surface is a coating or layer, and normal use and wear will eventually erode or damage it to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the use and care it gets. Anodized cookware is nothing more or less than aluminum that has been treated electro-chemically to produce a grey surface layer that is resistant to acid, preventing acid foods from reacting with the metal. The layer is not that thick and can be worn through by long-term use and scouring. Once that happens, you've basically got a very overpriced aluminum utensil. Also, anodized shouldn't really go in the dishwasher; that acid-resistant layer is rather sensitive to alkali, a major component of dishwashing detergent.

Enamelware can be damaged by acid, overheating, sudden temperature changes, scratching by tools like spatulas, and dropping. You can actually break a piece of Le Creuset; the cast iron under the enamel is fairly brittle.

If you want cookware that will last without triggering OCD Teasing , you might consider clad stainless cookware. You mentioned a very good brand, All-Clad, but you're right about the insane price. You might look at Tramontina's Tri-Ply Clad line, which is the same construction, and very very close to the same quality, at a lesser price. Tramontina sells a lot of different clad stainless lines, so be sure you're looking at the Tri-Ply line, not the cheaper lines like Sterling. Only Tri-Ply is the same straight-gauge construction as All-Clad (straight-gauge means that there is a layer of aluminum between two layers of stainless that go all the way up the sides of the utensil. Cheaper cookware uses a clad disc just on the bottom of the utensil; the sides are just one layer of stainless). You can see Tri-Ply Clad (and some pricing) here:

http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/tramontina_triply_clad.htm

Clad stainless is a superb choice for most people. It's a good conductor of heat, and it's very responsive, meaning that it picks up heat from the burner quickly, and loses it quickly once you take the cookware off the flame. The surface layer of stainless is very sturdy and not prone to scratching or flaking off. There's nothing to chip. Stainless is inert and does not react with acid or alkali. The stuff can go in the dishwasher. It can be scoured, and if you REALLY burn something on to it, it can be cleaned by spraying it with oven cleaner and letting it sit overnight. You will pass quality clad stainless down to your grandchildren if you give it any care at all.

Just my two cents, but I hope it helps a bit. Good cookware is an investment, not an expense. Many people will spend 50K on a car they expect to drive for four or five years, and balk at spending $100-$250 on a deep 12-inch sautoir that will last them their entire lives, with no further expense needed.
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GaryProtein



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't completely throw out the nonstick. If you have budget cookware now, you probably have nonstick, and you will likely miss it for some foods, and might also regret not having some for when you just aren't in the mood for an evening of scrubbing when you'd rather be romantic or relaxing. Moderation is good. Have some of each.

I think Calphalon is way overpriced for its quality. Swiss Diamond is great nonstick. Stainless steel clad aluminum (All-Clad) is terrific for a tough all metal piece of cookware. You may also want some cast iron.
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SgtNickFury



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cheap pots in question have nonstick that is peeling up, and if it turns out that non stick has any health benefits I will take it in a pill form.

I want to get rid of it because the non-stick is coming apart. In Any case, I do not mind cleaning, most everything I throw in dish washer except the cookware, and truthfully washing dishes is one of the most relaxing things I know to do in a Zen, way just enough to keep your mind from wandering about other things, but not enough to really take any close attention or thought power......it's meditation.

Besides the only time it's tough to clean is when it's something that's been baked in the oven.......all the stove top stuff cleans easy. I will never understand WHY people need a stock pot with nonstick....what the hell are you people cooking in stickpots....don't people have liquid in there?

If you're cooking properly you're not going to stick stuff on most pots and pans.....that can't be cleaned in about 10 seconds with a scotch bright pad.

Back to my cookware search...

I am really liking what I have seen on Costco's 5 ply stainless all-clad competitor one of the Kirkland signature series....

Kirkland Signature™ 13-piece Stainless Steel Cookware Set

But beyond that I plan to just collect here and there as I find it, I found a Les Creuset 8 qt stock pot for 39 bucks at tuesday mornings, they had a frying pan also I might grab (even at discount though it was like 50 bucks) I have pretty much decided on mix and matching.

I wonder though is Enamel on stainless very good at heat conduction? I know Le Creuset enamel on cast iron will work great and last forever (if you don't mind slower times to heat up) but how does enameled stainless distribute compares to something with an aluminum or copper core?
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danemodsandy



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

Enamel on ANYTHING will be susceptible to chipping, crazing. etching, and discolouration. With very good care, you can minimise these problems, even avoid them completely for a time, but the day finally comes when you have a butterfingered moment, or you overheat something, and your nice piece of enamelware isn't so nice any more. Since you said you wanted something that held up over time, I wanted to be sure you understood that enamelware has its drawbacks. That's not to say it's not good cookware for the jobs it can do well- there's nothing like it for long, slow braises and simmers. But for basic cookware, it's not that great. It is slow to heat and slow to lose heat when it's off the burner. It's heavy. And that pretty surface is fragile.

The stuff you linked to at Costco is called clad-disc cookware. The body of each piece is a single ply of stainless steel. On the bottom, there is a disc of another metal (copper in this case), covered by a disc of stainless. Clad-disc cookware can be very decent stuff. The set has a decent assortment of pieces, but you're going to need a really large pan at some point, like a 12-inch deep sautoir with a lid. Those skillets in that set are pretty small. The other thing this set has going for it is that the lids are stainless. A lot of cookware has glass lids nowadays; I recommend against the purchase of such cookware. When you break a lid (and you will), it's often impossible to obtain a replacement. You'll find that the manufacturer "no longer makes that line".

The Costco stuff looks like decent enough starter cookware, and you can always pick up a large sautoir to augment the assortment. Look for something 12 inches across, about 3-1/2 to 4 inches deep, with an assist handle on the side opposite the pan handle. A sautoir like this will allow you to do a lot of dishes that start with browning, then go on to add liquids for a period of braising. If you can afford it, a shallower 12-inch saute with sloped sides is good to add to the sautoir- it will be very useful for quick sautes, like veal piccata. Again, no glass lids. Both these pans should be clad-disc or straight-gauge stainless, maybe anodized if you can live with the drawbacks I mentioned in my last post.

Every kitchen needs a nonstick pan or two, but the way to buy nonstick is on the cheap, and to discard it when it begins to flake and peel, or wear through. Tramontina's nonstick pans are in every Wal-Mart, and they're very decent quality at a blowout price. I spent a lot of years in the housewares field, and I have seen more "miracle" nonstick surfaces come and go than you can imagine. They all promise that they'll be wonderful forever. They all eventually give problems. Buy nonstick cheap and throw it out without remorse when its time is up.

Hope this helps.
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Bunny



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheap is relative. Get a good stainless steel All-Clad from a "seconds" seller, at very reduced price. There will be a slight blemish somewhere on the surface; who cares? It is made of one material, solid, clean lines, no ceramic to crack or coating to wear off. You can use it anywhere from the oven to an induction burner. It'll last forever. I think that's a deal.

Also, how about some good Lodge cast iron? That lasts forever too, cast in one piece, and once you have a good "seasoning" on it, it is as good as non-stick; just don't boil acidic stuff in it, or the seasoning will come off. If the surface gets messed up, just strip it and season again. In fact, you can probably get some rusty pieces very cheaply at a flea market, and fix them up nicely.
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SgtNickFury



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've learned more in the past few weeks about cookware then i ever thought i would, and I'm pretty much done with looking at sets....I'll just pick them out one at a time.

However one thing confuses me......what has happened to all the good enamel on steel lines?

Is it just out of vogue?

Someone mentioned enamel having problem with acidic foods.....that's just wrong...enamel does better then ANY other surface with acidic food....it's basically a layer of pyrax after all. I read left and right about chipping, but my mother has an enamelware pot that I grew up with that is enamel on steel, it's no longer smooth and white, and I admit there are pits, but it always cleans up fine, and you can make a nice batch of tomato based acidic sauce and store it in the same container without ever having ANY effect on the food. She always used metal utinsels, and not once was there any chip.....the fact it's not smooth is not utinsel marks, but just wear from so much use........I admit it's heat conduction might not be perfect, but the enamel on the steel serves to retain the heat, and in a way helps it become slightly more even then steel usually would be.....and for a soup, or sauce that is acidic and slow cooking, it has worked great...and it's nigh industructable....no idea who made it it has an S on the bottom in a circle though. If I could buy a set of it now I would.

The best Enamel on steel I can find is the few pots that le creuset make...I got one at tuesday morning that is my official chili, spagettic pot.......it may not be as even as their more famous cast iron, but it's light and works great for me.....

Chantal has ^$#$)^@#($(*^@#! nonstick coatings on everything....so as far as I am concerned they are dead to me. The ONLY thing I want nom stick is a frying pan for eggs and omlettes......I hate peeling non-stick......worse then anything. None of it lasts, and even teh scanpan, and diamond stuff will have a shelf life, and then you have a very expensive pan witha ruined non stick coating. I think I iwll just admit I have to buy a new NS pan every few years.

What I want are some good enamel on steel sauce pans, and perhaps a windsor, and saucier in the 3-5 qt range.....with NO nonstick coating.......

Does anyone know anyone who makes anything like that anymore?

Thanks for the tip on the tri-ply, I deffinately plan to get a few pieces....but I have decided there is no universal material, and so I will not be getting a set of anything.
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mytwocents
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Henkels Twincast Reply with quote

Hi There. What an interesting conversation- we are replacing a set of Henckels Twincast pots, and have decided on a stainless set from Calphalon (we might add a non-stick frying pan for eggs...). We are NOT happy with Henckels at the moment. The non-stick is bubbling up and peeling off. They have apparently stopped making the Twin Cast line, and are not fulfilling their warranty obligations, as they have 'nothing to replace it with'. The matter isn't settled yet, and to be fair, I am still hopeful that they will reimuburse part of our $.

We considered the anodized aluminum, but decided that we didn't need to go that high end for most of our daily use. We might get one or two peices as need arizes.
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scott123



Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Morristown, NJ

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll echo previous posters suggestions and recommend both not purchasing non stick cookware and tossing any non stick cookware you may currently own. Non stick cookware is total garbage.

That is, if you appreciate good food.
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GaryProtein



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott123 wrote:
I'll echo previous posters suggestions and recommend both not purchasing non stick cookware and tossing any non stick cookware you may currently own. Non stick cookware is total garbage.

That is, if you appreciate good food.


Not necessarily, and let's not throw the baby out with the wash water. Some non-stick is very good. Try a Swiss Diamond product. I hate to keep saying that, sounding like one of their reps, which I am not, but their non-stick is excellent. The Anolon Titanium and Anolon Advanced (same insides, different handle and outside) is also good.


Last edited by GaryProtein on Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Howard



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.amazon.com/Calphalon-Tri-Ply-Copper-3-Quart-Stainless/dp/B00007KPHQ/ref=sr_11_1/002-3593344-7941631?ie=UTF8

Why do you prefer enamel over stainless steel?
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The Mad Viking
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: disc cookware Reply with quote

I have a 12" pan of stainless with a heavy copper bottom "disc".

I have no problems with flatness or temperature distribution. In fact, it has fantastic temperature properties.

It carries the "President's Choice" label; which means I am sure it was made in China.

It was about $30. Obviously it could fall apart, but for the money, it has exceeded my expectations.

I like copper. I don't want to afford stainless-clad copper.
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GuidoTKP



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've owned some Calphalon Hard Anodized and it doesn't hold up. Some of the damage was from pan stacking and metal utensil use, but that just falls into the category of pans you have to baby. It sounds like you're not considering it any more, but I think hard anodized sucks (in contrast, my Calphalon non-stick pans have held up better with the same treatment).

With respect to the non-stick hate, I would argue that it's pretty nice to have a large (12" to 14") non-stick skillet in your collection of pans. They don't hold up as long as your other pans, but that just means don't spend a lot on them, not that you shouldn't own any. Best place to buy non-stick cookware is from a restaurant supply store. They'll be very reasonably priced and suitable to the tasks you'll be using them for (omelette making, stir frying, etc.). Plus, restaurant supply stores are fun! Smile
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