Cooking For Engineers

[Guest]

The information here is priceless. I have a 8.2 inch Global G-2 that I've been using for years. I'm now looking for a new knife, not because of the handle (which I happen to like compared to a Wusthof; it has its pros and cons) or because it's not sharp enough, but because it's simply too short for me. I use a pinch grip and simply feel that it's too short for me to handle big cooking projects. (It happens to get really sharp when using sharpening stones and doesn't take too long. I use a 1000 and finish with a 6000 - and I don't do a good job of keeping a consistent angle! - but it gets so sharp I can shave hairs off my arm and cut through paper easily.)

I was interested in a number of knives here but noticed that a number of the knives do not have measurements for thickness. Do you have plans on updating the information? (Did you happen to measure the thickness of the Global? I don't have a caliper and was just wondering about its thickness in comparison to the other knives tested.) Also, I noticed that you singled out the Nenox as a knife that had a rounded spine. Did any other knives have a rounded spine?

Thanks!

[Former rep]

On January 11, 2010 at 10:49 PM, knifeguy (guest) said...
Subject: Seriously?


I like the test and the all the knives that you tested. I used to be a manager for cutco and have spent 6 plus years working with food as well as cooking on my own. Cutco is not the best in terms of performance, coming from someone who uses knives multiple times a day while making a ton of food. However they aren't supposed to be. I must say that Vector (who markets and sells cutco) is not a marketing scheme, and is actually considered to be a pretty standard form of personal selling, with commision based results. However they also pay Rep's who present the knives, but make no sales, taking away pressure selling and ideally sympathy buys from people who won't use the product and hurt the word of mouth brand building which Cutco has built itself on. Any Rep who promote Cutco as the top preforming knife are stupid.

Cutco is designed for housewives and people who may cook one-three times a day because they are convenient and low maintenance. You can buy a decent knife, and with proper care/cleaning/sharpening, it will outpreform many knives out of the package. Same can be said for good knives that people dont take care of. Personally i really like using any knife that can get the job done, however at my job shun and wusthof, however i have used them when not probably taken care of and its a whole different ballgame.

But those are the knives that you will probably find in a restaurant, or even lesser known brands, depending on the CHEF/Cook/food Preparer. Most of the chefs in restaurants have their own knives that they bring to and from work with them, and often baby and take care of like they were gold. Cutco, and even some Henckles, are not designed for this abuse and use, although they can stand up to it with proper care.

If you want a good knife set that is right for you, it will take trial and error, and probably a few different brands with different knives. I don't remember who said it but yes, a chef knife can be the only knife you need in a kitchen, but its nice to have a variety for different tasks. Also get one with a weight, length and handle that is right for you. A more experienced person with a blade may like a longer/heavier knife when dicing/chopping/cutting or whatever....mrs. jones the 110 pound woman next door may want something lighter and easier to handle

[sushi man]

These knives were sharpened with different purposes and cutting styles in mind so factory sharpened knives are unfairly tested without giving them all the same bevel/angle to level the playing field.

What should matter are stuff that you cannot manipulate or change like the handle feel, balance, durability and characteristics of the steel.

So those are what should matter most. In my opinion the factory sharpness doesn't mean much. I can sharpen a $20 knife to be as sharp as a factory sharpened knife costing 4 times or more.

I currently own at least one knife from Victorinox, MAC pro series, Shun Elite, Messermeister just to name a few. Some people collect cards, I collect kitchen knives.

Anyways my work horse is the Victorinox, it does everything i need it to well without any fuss. Plus it's so inexpensive. I have given many of these away as gifts.

My pricier knives are fun, totally unnecessary like a Ferrari but a pleasure to drive and let my friends play with.

I mean when is the average home chef ever gonna get to slice with a knife with a Rockwell hardness of 64?

To each his own, so start inexpensive and get proficient at sharpening and maintaining your own knives. You may find you won't care for the high end stuff down the road.

[Home Cook]

I agree with Sushi Man

I came to purchase Victorinox after sharpening and re-sharpening lower cost knives. You can, with the necessary experience, sharpen a low cost knife to a high level. However I will not hold that edge for long. The Victorinox fibrox I have shaved the hairs off my arm out of the box and has held that edge very well.

I considered a Henckel cooks knife but could not justify 4 time the price to myself. I may however buy one when I'm a little more flush

[BoB/335]

So this thread started Nov of 2005 and is still going. I read through the entire thread and bounce back and forth between going on the cheap with the dollars and getting a Victorinox Chef or spending the money and going for the Mac. I'm thinking the 8.5" without the grooves. ( I would think you would eventually get to the grooves after years of sharpening, no?) Also I don't see many other chef knives with these grooves. Why is that?

I would be interested in learning more about sharpening BEFORE getting any knife. I am looking to get a DVD maybe. I've read some explanations but I think actually seeing it done will help a lot.

Hope this thread is still alive. I am new to cooking (home on Comp) and am getting into it a bit. I have been married 27 years and have been hoping for a good sharp knife all these years just for carving meats. Now after doing a bunch of cooking I feel I need something for prep. I deserve one after all this time. (Don't I?)

[Dilbert]

>>learning more about sharpening BEFORE getting any knife

this is an excellent primer on sharpening - the author is well respected:
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/ward.htm

whether you go with free hand or mechanical gizmos - "European style" or "Asian style" - it does help to know the basics.

[BoB/335]

No opinion on these "dimples" on the 8"?

Anyone have any ideas about this course on knives?

http://www.92y.org/shop/class_detail.asp?category=92Tri+92YTribeca+Classes888&productid=MD3FW02

[Dilbert]

>>opinions on dimples

did you find this thread?

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1691

a sharp knife is a pleasure to use - I doubt you'll regret getting a quality knife.

frankly, any of the good brands are good - the differences tend to be in the shape of the handle (and whether it "fits" your hand), weight (European styles tend to be heavier than Japanese styles) and for example on a chef knife the geometry of the "belly" in the knife (some are flatter than others)

buying a knife based only on metallurgical considerations ("it's got half a % more x" or "it's two points harder on the Rockwell scale") that is uncomfortable in your hand and feels awkward to use is not a good long term thing. you got a bunch of money wrapped up in a knife you don't like using . . .

the theories that "X is best because it holds an edge longer/better" are highly suspect in my opinion. any knife will require periodic sharpening (ceramics are a semi-exception; they hold their edge for a long time but are brittle and do not lend themselves to home sharpening)

the class should be informative - not only for technique but presuming it's not "bring your own knife" - you may get to use several different brands / styles "up close and personal" and hopefully have an opportunity to see which work for you.

I have three Wuesthof chef knives: 10", 8" and 6"
the 8" gets the most use of the three.

[Guest]

I use a furi diamond fingers to sharpen my knives. Since I switched to this sharpener life has been easier. All you do is drag it through until you get the sharpness you want. All my knives stay razor sharp. If a knife won't stand up to this sharpening method, I don't need it. I tried several of the sharpening gadgets and gizmos. They all take too long and the clamp on one was very awkward.

My favorite knife is a furi gusto grip knife with dimples in the blade and an elastomer grip that is very comfortable. I keep it razor sharp and use it while the expensive Henckels stay in the knife rack.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=9985

[BoB/335]

Thanks for the link on the "dimples". I'm not looking for dimples but I can't figure out why the 8"Mac had them but the 8.5" doesn't.
I know it's probably best to hold a knife in your hands but I don't expect to find some of these brands discussed here in any stores around here.

I think I'll stay with 8" or over for a Chef knife. I'll look more into that sharpening system but I'm not afraid to learn to use wet stones. I need to see more how to make sure you have the right angle.

[Dilbert]

as I said in the thread reference, dimples/kullens are nice - they seem to have limited advantages - sure not going to make one into an instant best-cook-on-the-block.

I would not refuse to buy a good handling knife because it had them, and I would not insist on only a knife with them. the kullens may help in some situations but I've not noticed an harm they do in non-advantaged situations either.

>>stones and angles
dead simple. little math (sin theta), a ruler and a chunk of card stock and you've got all the basics.

in the practical home kitchen there is no difference between an x degree bevel and a x.356720192 +/- 5 degree bevel.

[BoB/35]

Does it pay to steel at all or should you just go to a stone to "keep" a blade in shape?

I have been wondering at the difference between these 2 ceramic steels for a Mac 8" Chef knife.

The Mac Black Ceramic Honing Rod is an extremely hard 81° Rockwell C compared to metal rods ("steels") at 62° and White ceramic rods at 76°. The rod must be significantly harder than the steel blade so that the softer blade "wears" away or hones when rubbed against the harder rod. Mac knives are among the hardest available at 58 - 60° and therefore should only be honed using ceramic rods. Other brands of knives generally range 52°-57° and can easily be honed with the Black Ceramic Honing Rod.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=14587

[Dilbert]

I steel my knives almost every use. it really does go a long long way in keeping the edge in shape. probably one reason I can get away with a 2x/yr sharpening routine.

if you let the knives go, it can get past the point the steel is effective. it's really dicey to make a well dulled edge knife "sharp again" with a steel. but routine steeling will "keep" them sharp for a longer time/use period. kinda' like "a steel in time saves nine" thing . . .

as for type, I would go with the manufacturer's recommendations - yup, it's got to harder than the knife. some extreme knife types say thing like "never use a grooved or ceramic" - or even "use only a glass rod" [?] well, methinks I'd go with the manufacturer's thoughts on the subject.

I bought mine in 1985 - and they're quite fine with the steeling and 2x/yr stone sharpening routine.

[BoB/335]

Well I ordered a MTH-80 from The Knife Merchant. Very pleasant people to deal with.
The Mac sales manager highly recommended I go with the Rollsharp sharpener and scratch the steels. I know what all the sites like this one say about honing and sharpening knives yourself but both the Mac sales manager and The Knife Merchant (who is a chef himself and the owner) both recommended a V shape sharpener to make sure the blade is at the right angle. Chef david says it takes many years to get knife sharpening down right and you can do more harm than good with a stell and stones if you don't know what you are doing.
Of course Mac suggested the Rollsharp which is put out by them. Chef David suggested the Wusthof Asian 2 stage sharpener over the Rollsharp because it has 2 separate ceramic stones and holds the knife at a 15 degree angle and to use this as a honer and a sharpener so that's what I went with.
http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6313

I don't have a knife block or storage so I also got one of these Knife-Safe
http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=5099

One last thing. Got one last email from the sales manager at Mac and don't know what to make of it.

"Glad you decided to go with a MAC. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Just be sure to avoid hard foods such as bones, frozen foods, hard squashes and hard cheeses and this knife will last you a lifetime."

Squashes and hard cheeses????????????????

[BoB/335]

One more thing.

I had found a comment on a review for the Mac MTH-80 which I had copied and pasted to an email to Mac. I neglected to make note of the link and Mac has asked me for the link to contact an unsatisfied cusomer to help. Below is all I have. Maybe some computer geek can do a search and find the link. I can't find it even in my History.


Add a Product Review
Average rating is 4

By: Simon Han
Los Angeles,CA
The knives are beautiful and came in mint condition. MacMighty proved to be extremely sharp; but the associated brittleness was some what disappointing. My MTH 80 already chipped on cutting some baked pork grinds within 5 days of use. Guess the knife requires extreme handle with care; just as a benchmark,I have to say they are almost twice more delicate than knives such as Shun classics.