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Equipment & Gear: Kitchen Knives
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Toolman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Tramontina Cutlery Reply with quote

I haven't seen anyone mention Tramontina for cutlery. They are made in Brazil like the Mundial only better. I've used them for years and they hold an edge and take one just as easy. Not easy to find but some professional sites to carry them. They also make the Sam's Club forged set 13 pc w/block only $100 w/lifetime sharpening when you send them in.
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jagstyle



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
chinese cleavers are a lot better than french chef's knives. its thicker and has more cutting power. I can't cut through anything with a chef's knife. chinese cleaver always gets the job done.

also, the sharp corner of the chinese cleaver nearest to you is very useful and powerful. It can do things like splitting up a coconut. chinese cleave rulez


What kind of chinese cleaver do you use?

A lot of chinese cleavers are actually thinner than your average chef's knife. When you start talking about splitting cocunuts I am beginning to think that you are using one that is meant for bones, rather than the light vegetable and meat cleaver that is the replacement for a chef's knife.

Take a look at some real Chinese Cleavers:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html

I'm currently eyeing the Suien Chinese Cleaver for $128...sweet knife and good price....
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jagstyle



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Tramontina Cutlery Reply with quote

Toolman wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention Tramontina for cutlery. They are made in Brazil like the Mundial only better. I've used them for years and they hold an edge and take one just as easy. Not easy to find but some professional sites to carry them. They also make the Sam's Club forged set 13 pc w/block only $100 w/lifetime sharpening when you send them in.


I googled these and noticed a full bolster on some lines...no thanks...can't sharpen as well at the heel and shortens the life of the blade...I'd avoid cheap knives like these at all costs...

How do you sharpen them? By what criteria do you deem them to hold an edge and take one easily?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this forum, and its great.

I have been pondering a better knife for a while. I've used a Henckels 4-star chef's knife for many many years and been quite happy with it. I manged to snap 10mm off the tip of it a few weeks ago (misusing it of course on only partially thawed beef, sigh...my bad) and I'm thinking of upgrading. I like the Misono (for a chef's knife) the best so far. Anyone have one? Used one? Know anything about them? (440 series since I can get sharper with high-carbon but my occasional laziness will result in rust). Hattori looks out of control, especially pricewise, and their damascus-clad blade looks like more of a marketing gimmick than really useful.

I haven't found any sources for the 'blue paper steel' knives and some good performers for very good slicers (both for sushi and other general slicing tasks, such as Peking Duck or similar).

I picked up a chinese cleaver of no name in chinatown right after I damaged my Henckels, and I'm very happy with it so far. Only $25, the store owner claimed that 'all the restaurant chefs here in chinatown use this one, it is the best you can get' (at least that's what my friend who was translating the mandarin for me said). I dunno, I haven't had it long enough to really judge the edge staying power, but it is a very surprisingly good knife for such an incredibly cheap price.

BTW, I am in no particular hurry to get the chef's knife since the cleaver definitely rules. It is as good or better than the 10" chef's knife for every task except those that require the full length, and have the smashing and scooping abilities as a plus. Maybe I should just get the slicer and be done with it...
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jagstyle



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
I just found this forum, and its great.


Have you been to these yet?
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/
http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/cutlery

I promise you that you won't find a better place to research and talk about kitchen cutlery than the two forums listed above. If you like this forum then the "In the Kitchen" section of knifeforums.com will blow you away. It's an outstanding community of highly experienced knifenuts!

Quote:
I have been pondering a better knife for a while. I've used a Henckels 4-star chef's knife for many many years and been quite happy with it. I manged to snap 10mm off the tip of it a few weeks ago (misusing it of course on only partially thawed beef, sigh...my bad) and I'm thinking of upgrading. I like the Misono (for a chef's knife) the best so far. Anyone have one? Used one? Know anything about them? (440 series since I can get sharper with high-carbon but my occasional laziness will result in rust). Hattori looks out of control, especially pricewise, and their damascus-clad blade looks like more of a marketing gimmick than really useful.


Have you considered the Misono UX10 series? It is a favorite among knifenuts. Better performance than the 440 series...
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/UX10Series.html

Regarding the Hattori HD, the Damascus clad blade is solely for aesthetics. I wouldnít consider it a marketing gimmick as it does look very pretty. Prices arenít crazy unless you are looking at the KD line which is a whole different ballpark. I donít know many people who have spent a grand on a chefís knifeÖ

Quote:
I haven't found any sources for the 'blue paper steel' knives and some good performers for very good slicers (both for sushi and other general slicing tasks, such as Peking Duck or similar).


http://watanabeblade.com/english/
http://www.dento.gr.jp/takedahamono/e-kajiya/e_index.html
Murray Carter - see forums listed above to find out about this American maker as I don't have a website

Quote:
I picked up a chinese cleaver of no name in chinatown right after I damaged my Henckels, and I'm very happy with it so far. Only $25, the store owner claimed that 'all the restaurant chefs here in chinatown use this one, it is the best you can get' (at least that's what my friend who was translating the mandarin for me said). I dunno, I haven't had it long enough to really judge the edge staying power, but it is a very surprisingly good knife for such an incredibly cheap price.


Is it a CCK (Chan Chi Kee)? If so, the store owner was right. They are the best cleavers for anywhere near their price range. I picked one up in Chinatown for $32. It is the KF1301 240mm Small Slicer (100mm width). The one to get is the KF1101 240mm Kitchen Slicer (125mm width) but I couldn't find it...
Obviously, better cleavers can be had for much more ($130+).
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html

Here is a great thread about CCK cleavers:
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/693545/post/693545/

The CCK product line:
http://www.chanchikee.com/ChineseKnives.html


Last edited by jagstyle on Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Karl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Serrated knives? Reply with quote

Just to correct a tiny little error in the original essay.

Serrated knives are not necessarily bad in a chef's knife (though I don't like them, for reasons I will state later.)

And serrated knifes do indeed tear, as you say, but they also pierce, slice and saw, depending on the pattern.

Why are some knives serrated?

1) Serration makes the edge longer. The edge is no longer a nearly straight line, but wiggly. And like the coastline of Nova Scotia, a wiggly line is much longer than a straight line with the same endpoints. If wear is evenly distributed (which is a bad assumption, as we will see) then there is more edge to receive that wear, and the edge stays sharper longer. Hence, the "blades that last forever" claims (and those "diamond" blades you mention are not coated with diamond, they are simply serrated in a pattern that they call "diamond-sharpened" or they use diamonds to create the edge.)

2) Serration creates tiny teeth or, depending on the serration pattern, bumps that project out further on the edge, and valleys that recede back into the blade. The points of the teeth become wear points that receive the brunt of the wear, allowing the sides of the teeth and the valleys to remain sharp. Those areas of the blade remain sharp for a considerable time, since they are protected by the points.

3) The points of the teeth, even though they receive lots of wear, can still remain relatively sharp for a long time, simply because they are the points. In engineering terms, they have a small local radius (the definition of sharpness) and it would take a lot of wear to make that radius so large that they cannot function. As an analogy, imagine the point of a pin. How dull would that point have to become before it would stop functioning as a pin? Lots.

4) Depending on the shape of the teeth and the slicing action used, the sides of the teeth may be presented to the material in a skewed manner, the way a craftsman may turn a hand plane slightly left or right to make planing easier. The reason he or she does that is that by doing so, the bevel on the edge presented to the wood becomes effectively longer, making the blade edge effectively thinner and sharper. So cutting becomes easier.

5) Again, depending on the tooth pattern, some serrated knives also saw, i.e., make a cut by actually removing some of the material. The teeth cut off tiny bits of the material and carry them away. You can see the principle used in woodsaws. Most serrated knives are not designed to function this way, but some do. I have used knifes that left a fine powder of whatever I was cutting, like sawdust, on the cutting board.

So here is the sum total of a serrated blade's action. As you push the blade down, the points of the teeth penetrate the material, much as a spear point penetrates a water buffalo. (As you may know, a spear point does not have to be razor sharp in order to penetrate and do lots of damage.) The valleys and sides of the teeth then slice as you push the blade down and sideways, sometimes at a skewed angle. The teeth may cut off tiny bits of the material and carry them off as you move the blade back and forth. The overall result is better and faster cutting.

Most knifemakers have concluded, rightly, that serration does indeed make a superior cutting action. One thing it does is allow a knife made with cheap, thin, soft stainless steel to cut relatively effectively. Serrated knives also deal better with hard, fibrous materials that are particularly difficult to cut.

The only problem with serration is that it makes the knife harder to sharpen, especially as the knife wears enough to change the blade profile. There is no way you can sharpen a serrated knife down to a sliver, the way you can a non-serrated knife. For that reason, plus simple resistance to change and adherence to tradition, people still stick to fine-edged (as they are called) knives.

However, when you sharpen a kitchen knife with a regular 1000 grit stone, you leave tiny scratches in the edge that actually function as microscopic serrations. For that reason they usually recommend you sharpen a kitchen knife only with a steel or medium stone, not with 6000 or 10000 grit stone or polishing paste or microdiamond dust, as you might with woodworking tools.

Once, as an experiment, I sharpened my kitchen knife, a Calphalon, to the same edge I use in my woodworking tools. I use a method called "Scary Sharp," easily available on the Web, that uses automotive sandpaper glued to plate glass. It produces a blade so sharp that when you run the blade over your arm without even touching the skin, the blade pops hairs off, cut off in mid-trunk, as it were. The edge becomes more than mirror-bright. It appears white, at all angles.

And sure enough, it wasn't all that great. Particularly with vegetables, it didn't cut as well as my "duller" chef's knife. And with the relatively soft steel used in kitchen knives, and the salty and acid materials they are used on, the knife didn't stay sharp for long. So I spent several hours for nothing, other than learning something.

Karl
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jagstyle



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: CA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Serrated knives? Reply with quote

Karl wrote:
Serrated knives are not necessarily bad in a chef's knife


How do you mince herbs with a serrated knife?

Karl wrote:
However, when you sharpen a kitchen knife with a regular 1000 grit stone, you leave tiny scratches in the edge that actually function as microscopic serrations. For that reason they usually recommend you sharpen a kitchen knife only with a steel or medium stone, not with 6000 or 10000 grit stone or polishing paste or microdiamond dust, as you might with woodworking tools.


For me, an 8000 grit edge works the best for everything I come across except hard-crusted bread. Thatís when I pull out the Jap saw...

Their recommendation is for cheapo soft steel knives (Calphalon) that can't hold an acute polished edge and therefore fall back on a more jagged edge to provide more sawing and tearing action. Hardly ideal for a chef's knife...think of quickly chopping vegetables. The motion is primarily vertical and therefore serrations are hardly ideal. Same applies for mincing as mentioned earlier.

Karl wrote:

Once, as an experiment, I sharpened my kitchen knife, a Calphalon, to the same edge I use in my woodworking tools. I use a method called "Scary Sharp," easily available on the Web, that uses automotive sandpaper glued to plate glass. It produces a blade so sharp that when you run the blade over your arm without even touching the skin, the blade pops hairs off, cut off in mid-trunk, as it were. The edge becomes more than mirror-bright. It appears white, at all angles.


really? free standing hairs popping off mid trunk...I don't think so...Even straight razors (blade much thinner than knife or woodworking tool) fail to achieve what you have described. There is not enough resistance and the hairs simply get pushed aside and pass under the blade. Maybe your hair is super stiff or perhaps your story is just highly embellished. Also, an edge appearing white is just a mirror polish reflecting light. More than mirror-bright??? Does that mean that the steel is emanating its own light?

Karl wrote:
And sure enough, it wasn't all that great. Particularly with vegetables, it didn't cut as well as my "duller" chef's knife. And with the relatively soft steel used in kitchen knives, and the salty and acid materials they are used on, the knife didn't stay sharp for long. So I spent several hours for nothing, other than learning something.


I wouldn't expect a Calphalon to stay sharp for long. In what manner are you cutting these vegetables? Sounds like an inefficient sawing motion...how else would this "duller" edge appear to cut better than the "sharp" one?
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Tab



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject: Knives Reply with quote

For all the stuff that I own, I really only use four knives...
1) A cheap bread knife for when I have to slice bread
2) A Henckel chef's knife
3) A Henckel paring knife
4) Cheap little 1 1/2 " paring knives (3 for $2).

I have drawers of other knives that were gifts, but these are all I use. I have well-intentioned gifts like "forever knives" and serrated knives and "good cook" knives and whatever. I used to be a big serrated knife user but now I don't go near the things except for slicing bread (they're not too shabby on tomatoes either, but a well-sharpened chef's knife will do as well or better).

And since I rarely slice bread (trying to be low-carb), it's really just the two Henckel's and the cheap paring knives (they're great for cheese or slicing the core top of a tomato or whatever, I must have 8 of them in the drawer).
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Joe S
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject: Ronco Cooking Scissor Reply with quote

The scissors lasted three days- they broke- on the handle

No easy way to get refund or replacement

The rest of the Ronco set was fine- Really sharp (too sharp says my wife)
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CookingWithMe
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: if you want to see some real cutting power Reply with quote

these guys think they can cook. but they do find a nice place for a power saw and a drill. these boys at 1920 fairfax are a little crazy. This is some horrible video.

1920fairfax for cooking on a budget with a drill. go to their cooking show and watch these morons use some real cutting power
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joe the stormtrooper
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:50 am    Post subject: frozen meatloaf Reply with quote

oh boy, any one know a good way to cut frozen meatloaf in half without thawing it first?

http://www.1920fairfax.com
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fwfoess
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:40 am    Post subject: frozen meatloaf and Japanese knives Reply with quote

I use my (usually woodcutting) bandsaw to cut frozen stuff like meatloaf. A hacksaw should also work.
On Japanese knives: The easiest and quickest way to ruin a Japanese knife is to use a steel or a kitchen knife sharpener. They are MUCH harder than the usual European style knife for which a sharpening steel is meant. This hardness allows a keener and longer lasting edge but it also makes the edge (and the knife in general) quite fragile. Please, please use only an oilstone or a Japanese waterstone to sharpen a Japanese knife.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Let's Cut Through It All Reply with quote

As someone who professionally uses knives everyday in the workplace I hope I can give a bit of help to all of the emotional confusion that seems to be occuring on this subject.
1.) Quality - There's no way around it. You want to feel safe with the knife you are using and a good Hand-Forged knife in your hand will cut, slice and chop without cracking, chipping, etc. In my opinion, as one who has sold them for many years and now uses them on a professional basis, Wustof Classic and Messermeister are the best. These are followed by Shun. Wustof are one of the absolute last knives in the world who own a 2-story forge in Solingen, Germany that forges their knives. This produces a superior quality steel. They are then hand-forged and finished. Having sold them and used them I have never had a problem with them nor have seen one returned. I cannot say that for the Four Star Henckels, which used to be of the same quality but has succumbed to economic pressures and now produces an inferior product. I have seen Henckels returned with stress fractures due to substandard forging proceedures that are in place today. They also have come back chipped, tips broken off, etc. Messermeister is an off-shoot of Wustof started by employees that formerly worked for them. There are fine differences between the knives themselves, but the balance is the same. Shun is a high quality knife with a similar balanced weight and 16 layers or steel. I use the Santoku and enjoy the formed grip in my hand. They do have the same grip for lefthanders, but this generally has to be special ordered. I have seen Shun returned for chipping along the knife edge. I love mine and have not experienced this and I never know what someone actually does with their knife once it leaves the store. In conclusion, your knives are an investment. Use what feels comfortable in your hand for safety and convenience of use.
2.) Types of knives for everyday use depends upon your expertise in the kitchen. I usually recommend the following:
- Chef's Knife. The size, again, depends on what feels good in your hand. I use a 6" most of the time and alternate to an 8" for larger jobs. Sometimes a 10" for even larger purposes. I like the Chef's knife for it's multi-use capabilities, i.e. chopping, rocking, slicing, etc.
- Santoku. A fairly new knife in the American kitchen. These I find are best for slicing, especially those with the hollow-ground edge (dimples). This edge serves two purposes. It creates an extremely fine edge to the knife and also cuts down on the drag by creating an air pocket between the food and the cutting surface of the knife blade. They work well for slicing onions, tomatoes, cucumbers, etc. They work for chopping also, but I still prefer to use my Chef's knife since I tend to "rock" the belly of the knife on my cutting board. The Santoku, generally, does not have as curved of a belly as the Chef's.
-Paring Knife. Small jobs, such as paring and peeling.
-Bread Knife.
-Boning Knife. For obvious reasons. This knife is more flexible and can bend and scrape in order to remove the sinew and meat from the bone.
I would like to conclude by requesting that you please do not put your good knives in the dishwasher. It takes just a second to hand wash them. The drying cycle, over time, makes the steel brittle and leads to chipping. Please purchase a knife or drawer block for storage. Don't use your knives for purposes that they were not intended for. If you are happy with other brands that you have purchased and used then that is fine. There is something for everyone. That's why we drive everything from Kia's to Bentley's. Just remember the old saying, "You get what you pay for". Oh and one more thing in regards to sharpening your knives. Put them back into alignment by honing them on a steel. Over time with use your knives need to be "straightened out". If you were to look at the edge of your knife under a microscope you would see that it is slightly bent from use. By honing the knife on a steel, you will notice that it will feel sharper. This is easy to perform and just requires practice. Hold your knife at a 20 degree angle or press the edge of the knife to the steel with the tip of your finger to find the degree. Follow the edge of the knife from end to tip at this angle. What you do to one side, do to the other. I usually don't recommend the electirc sharpening machines as most people don't know when to stop and I have seen an 8" Chef's Knife turned into a Boning knife with too much use. Knives should be professionally sharpened once a year by someone who knows what they are doing and the cost is minimal at around $1.00 - $3.00 per knife.
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jagstyle



Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: CA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Let's Cut Through It All Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
As someone who professionally uses knives everyday in the workplace I hope I can give a bit of help to all of the emotional confusion that seems to be occuring on this subject.

emotional confusion? where?

It is surprising how little most professional chefs know about cutlery. The exceptions that I know post on knifeforums.com and Foodie Forums.

One of my favorite knifenuts on Foodie Forums recently stated:
"I learned a long time ago that, for the most part, using what a chef uses may not be the right answer or even a good answer. Most chefs know very little about cutlery other than how to use it. The chefs that post here, of course, are exceptions to that statement. It's great to see and I wish there were even more exceptions."

Anonymous wrote:
Wustof Classic and Messermeister are the best. These are followed by Shun.

The best? So you've used Hattori, Masamoto, Mashahiro, Misono, Ryusen, Glestain, MAC, Ichimonji Mitsuhide, Ittosai, Hiromoto, Nenox, Suisin, Tojiro, Watanabe, Takeda, Haslinger, and Carter knives and determined that those two reigned supreme? I feel that every manufacturer I've mentioned offers a chef's knife that is superior to Wusthof's and Messermister's current offerings. Messermister Meridian and San Moritz lines are great because they did away with that horrendous full bolster but Wusthof Classic has quickly become outdated. Light, thin blades made from powdered super steels in a sandwich construction with soft stainless is where cutlery is headed. The Germans have already begun following the Japanese's innovation in this respect. Take Henckels brand new Twin Cermax M66 line for example.

Anonymous wrote:
Santoku. A fairly new knife in the American kitchen. These I find are best for slicing, especially those with the hollow-ground edge (dimples). This edge serves two purposes. It creates an extremely fine edge to the knife and also cuts down on the drag by creating an air pocket between the food and the cutting surface of the knife blade. They work well for slicing onions, tomatoes, cucumbers, etc. They work for chopping also, but I still prefer to use my Chef's knife since I tend to "rock" the belly of the knife on my cutting board. The Santoku, generally, does not have as curved of a belly as the Chef's.


I have yet to find a Santoku useful. It does not do any tasks better than a gyuto (cow sword, Japanese chef's knife) and it fails to do the slicing tasks where the longer chef's knife is required. In my book Santokus are a salad knife reserved for those who watch Rachael Ray and are best to remain ignorant about high end cutlery. The kullens on your average Santoku are mostly a marketing gimmick. In my experience they have no noticeable effect, look horrible and may shorten the life of the blade. Try a blind test, just watch your fingers...

The only knives that I've heard of where the dimples actually make a detectable difference as far as drag is concerned are Glestains:


Anonymous wrote:
I usually don't recommend the electirc sharpening machines as most people don't know when to stop and I have seen an 8" Chef's Knife turned into a Boning knife with too much use.

Amen. I usually don't recommend your average "professional sharpener" either. See next comment section...

Anonymous wrote:
Knives should be professionally sharpened once a year by someone who knows what they are doing and the cost is minimal at around $1.00 - $3.00 per knife.

Why not learn how to hand sharpen yourself? Your knives will love you for it. Most "professional" sharpeners use high speed grinding wheels that remove too much metal and generate too much heat. The only professional sharpener I would trust my knives with is Dave at D&R Sharpening Solutions: http://drsharpening.com/index.html

Do your knives look like this when they come back from the pro?











didn't think so...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:58 am    Post subject: Let's all whip our's out and see whose is longer. Reply with quote

This forum is worse than sports talk radio. I LIKE WUSTOF! You're ignorant, Obviously it's Shun! THose are both mediocre, I have a $1200 Masamoto Honyaki Gyokuseikou Kyoumen Sushi knife which I like to rub obsessively on a damp stone for hours a day until I can see myself sitting alone in the blade edge.
I thought the anonymous comments from the guy who worked as a professional chef were quite insightful and showed a level of character and respect for the opinions of others that is rare these days. Yet in the next post he was berated for assuming he had something to offer because he worked with kitchen cutlery every day. How colossally arrogant! Next thing I know, my auto mechanic will be suggesting I do something to maintain my car. I don't think I'll listen, however, because he isn't the engineer who designed it. In fact, he probably never designed any car.
I hope my point is getting through; sarcasm tends to be a tricky thing with text. The reason forums like this are even slightly useful is because people like to try to help other people with advice. Let's ease up a bit shall we? The world does not begin and end with Cowry X.
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